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Author Topic: July 28, 2013 -- Seventeenth Sunday in Ordinary Time  (Read 1133 times)
Alan
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piggysiggy
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« on: July 29, 2013, 06:26:34 AM »

July 28, 2013
Seventeenth Sunday in Ordinary Time
Lectionary: 111

Reading 1 GN 18:20-32

In those days, the LORD said: “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great,
and their sin so grave,
that I must go down and see whether or not their actions
fully correspond to the cry against them that comes to me.
I mean to find out.”

While Abraham’s visitors walked on farther toward Sodom,
the LORD remained standing before Abraham.
Then Abraham drew nearer and said:
“Will you sweep away the innocent with the guilty?
Suppose there were fifty innocent people in the city;
would you wipe out the place, rather than spare it
for the sake of the fifty innocent people within it?
Far be it from you to do such a thing,
to make the innocent die with the guilty
so that the innocent and the guilty would be treated alike!
Should not the judge of all the world act with justice?”
The LORD replied,
“If I find fifty innocent people in the city of Sodom,
I will spare the whole place for their sake.”
Abraham spoke up again:
“See how I am presuming to speak to my Lord,
though I am but dust and ashes!
What if there are five less than fifty innocent people?
Will you destroy the whole city because of those five?”
He answered, “I will not destroy it, if I find forty-five there.”
But Abraham persisted, saying “What if only forty are found there?”
He replied, “I will forbear doing it for the sake of the forty.”
Then Abraham said, “Let not my Lord grow impatient if I go on.
What if only thirty are found there?”
He replied, “I will forbear doing it if I can find but thirty there.”
Still Abraham went on,
“Since I have thus dared to speak to my Lord,
what if there are no more than twenty?”
The LORD answered, “I will not destroy it, for the sake of the twenty.”
But he still persisted:
“Please, let not my Lord grow angry if I speak up this last time.
What if there are at least ten there?”
He replied, “For the sake of those ten, I will not destroy it.”

Responsorial Psalm PS 138:1-2, 2-3, 6-7, 7-8

R. (3a) Lord, on the day I called for help, you answered me.
I will give thanks to you, O LORD, with all my heart,
for you have heard the words of my mouth;
in the presence of the angels I will sing your praise;
I will worship at your holy temple
and give thanks to your name.
R. Lord, on the day I called for help, you answered me.
Because of your kindness and your truth;
for you have made great above all things
your name and your promise.
When I called you answered me;
you built up strength within me.
R. Lord, on the day I called for help, you answered me.
The LORD is exalted, yet the lowly he sees,
and the proud he knows from afar.
Though I walk amid distress, you preserve me;
against the anger of my enemies you raise your hand.
R. Lord, on the day I called for help, you answered me.
Your right hand saves me.
The LORD will complete what he has done for me;
your kindness, O LORD, endures forever;
forsake not the work of your hands.
R. Lord, on the day I called for help, you answered me.

Reading 2 COL 2:12-14

Brothers and sisters:
You were buried with him in baptism,
in which you were also raised with him
through faith in the power of God,
who raised him from the dead.
And even when you were dead
in transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh,
he brought you to life along with him,
having forgiven us all our transgressions;
obliterating the bond against us, with its legal claims,
which was opposed to us,
he also removed it from our midst, nailing it to the cross.

Gospel LK 11:1-13

Jesus was praying in a certain place, and when he had finished,
one of his disciples said to him,
“Lord, teach us to pray just as John taught his disciples.”
He said to them, “When you pray, say:
Father, hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come.
Give us each day our daily bread
and forgive us our sins
for we ourselves forgive everyone in debt to us,
and do not subject us to the final test.”

And he said to them, “Suppose one of you has a friend
to whom he goes at midnight and says,
‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread,
for a friend of mine has arrived at my house from a journey
and I have nothing to offer him,’
and he says in reply from within,
‘Do not bother me; the door has already been locked
and my children and I are already in bed.
I cannot get up to give you anything.’
I tell you,
if he does not get up to give the visitor the loaves
because of their friendship,
he will get up to give him whatever he needs
because of his persistence.

“And I tell you, ask and you will receive;
seek and you will find;
knock and the door will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks, receives;
and the one who seeks, finds;
and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
What father among you would hand his son a snake
when he asks for a fish?
Or hand him a scorpion when he asks for an egg?
If you then, who are wicked,
know how to give good gifts to your children,
how much more will the Father in heaven
give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him?”
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 10:40:50 AM by Alan » Logged

... love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
ncjohn
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« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2013, 10:34:55 AM »

He replied, “For the sake of those ten, I will not destroy it.”

I'm not sure I really get the point of this reading.

God sent Jonah into Niniveh to warn the Assyrians of His pending wrath, and the Assyrians repented. Of course Jonah did everything he could to avoid going to warn the Assyrians until the whale spit him up there in spite of his effort to not go.

Why would God's response here NOT be to say to Abraham, "Go warn the people of my impending wrath. If they repent I will not destroy them. If they will not repent tell the righteous to  leave with you." Given the level of Abraham's faith I feel quite sure he would have gone to do this had God asked him to. This is, after all, the same guy who was willing to sacrifice his own son, though admittedly he almost surely was counting on God to stop him since God had promised him to make his descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and that certainly wouldn't happen if he killed his son.
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"Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called children of God."
This is the effect of true charity, to be on good terms with all men, to consider no one your enemy, and to live at peace with those who hate peace.--Robert Bellarmine
Alan
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« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2013, 10:45:26 AM »

Yeah, John.  When I was listening to this at Mass yesterday, it just got me really pissed off.  I can't say exactly why, but at the time it was annoying as hell.  Maybe it's because I think it's stupid that Abraham gets to bargain with God over the fate of people who have no idea what's going on -- sinners and righteous alike.  Clearly it blows away the whole idea of individual culpability for sin.  For that matter, so did Jesus (did away with individual culpability for sin).  Maybe Abraham had human compassion, but God didn't -- so we needed Abraham to kick things off until God could figure out how to package divinity (which from what it sounds like has no compassion) and humanity with compassion, in the same package.  It was the human love in Jesus that was showing.  The Godliness was just the power and stuff.  Maybe that's the whole gospel, right there.  Grin

Alan
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 10:50:20 AM by Alan » Logged

... love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
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« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2013, 01:51:15 PM »

I think that's one of the reasons I sometimes have a hard time with the Bible. You get into the whole balancing act of it being "inerrant" while at the same time recognizing that it is written by the hands of men with their understanding of God at the time.

If it is to be inerrant in matters of faith and morals while not being so as to "details" what does one do with this seemingly vengeful, wrathful God who is later described as love and mercy itself, who "desires mercy, not sacrifice"? It would seem that our image and the nature of God would be pretty important as a matter of faith. Of course we have Jesus basically coming to say that they've misunderstood God the whole time, especially in his "you have heard it said XXX, but I tell you YYY."

It certainly gets confusing when we're told on one hand to learn the lessons of the OT while on the other hand finding things like this where the very nature of God has to be in essence ignored as being just how He was perceived at the time. If the nature of God is misunderstood how are any of the actions of this misunderstood God to be interpreted? Especially when you read statements like "...and God repented of the evil He had planned." As if God "plans" at all or performs evil acts.
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"Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called children of God."
This is the effect of true charity, to be on good terms with all men, to consider no one your enemy, and to live at peace with those who hate peace.--Robert Bellarmine
Alan
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« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2013, 04:52:03 PM »

I think that's one of the reasons I sometimes have a hard time with the Bible. You get into the whole balancing act of it being "inerrant" while at the same time recognizing that it is written by the hands of men with their understanding of God at the time.

If it is to be inerrant in matters of faith and morals while not being so as to "details" what does one do with this seemingly vengeful, wrathful God who is later described as love and mercy itself, who "desires mercy, not sacrifice"? It would seem that our image and the nature of God would be pretty important as a matter of faith. Of course we have Jesus basically coming to say that they've misunderstood God the whole time, especially in his "you have heard it said XXX, but I tell you YYY."

It certainly gets confusing when we're told on one hand to learn the lessons of the OT while on the other hand finding things like this where the very nature of God has to be in essence ignored as being just how He was perceived at the time. If the nature of God is misunderstood how are any of the actions of this misunderstood God to be interpreted? Especially when you read statements like "...and God repented of the evil He had planned." As if God "plans" at all or performs evil acts.

AMEN!
Yeah, God repented.  But "repent" implies regret and change and God doesn't change or regret afa I've ever been taught.  All the Most Holy Catholics group (you know what I mean) like to say God doesn't and cannot change -- or they take it one more step to say it is physically impossible for the Church to change.  So the Church stumbles over herself to explain new teachings such that the old ones are still brought forward.  Like Windows, still running DOS programs from a dozen systems back.  If God is so big on our repenting, wouldn't you think He'd show us the way?  Here He does.  So I guess that's Good News, huh?  Smiley

Alan
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 04:56:30 PM by Alan » Logged

... love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
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