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Author Topic: About forgiveness v. failure to judge at all -- maybe we can agree?  (Read 5814 times)
Alan
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« on: November 21, 2012, 03:51:57 AM »

OneSheep, this is for anyone to chime in but I'll address this OP to you for rhetorical simplicity.

We have gone around as to whether it is humanly possible to skip the judgment step altogether, and I think I have a way to have meaningful discussion, without the benefit of a conclusion to that debate.

In other words, you are saying that if you are really good at forgiving you will do so right away -- almost instantly, if I may put words into your mouth.  I say that we can go another step, and learn to fail to judge in the first place.  You don't buy that because you believe that judgment is inherent in our human design and cannot be avoided.  And I have contended that judgment is software, not hardware, and is programmed into us, and can be programmed out.

A scientist might spend his lifetime trying to resolve the issue.  An engineer will look at what we do know, and see how to work with it.  In this case I'm using the concept of "limits," borrowed from mathematics, to explain.

If I judge someone's sin (including my own) and then a year later I forgive, then I have spent a year in unforgiveness, which I will refer to as "stewing time."  During that year I suffer anxiety, depression, doubt, anger, and what have you because of that unforgiven sin festering in our minds.  What if you could forgive in a month?  Maybe it's a bad month, but then it's over and you'd have 11 months of no sin-on-my-mind.  What if I could forgive in a day?  A minute?  A tenth of a second?

I'm suggesting that if you learn to forgive soon enough -- say in less than two seconds -- that you may feel a momentary "nudge" but other than that, your stewing time just isn't sufficient to produce a lot of misery due to unforgiveness of a sin.  If you get a "spike" then that's wonderful, because the Lord is working in you so fast you don't even feel the surgery five seconds later.

Now here comes the engineering part:  for all practical purposes, if I can forgive quickly enough, my "stewing time" is so low that I might as well not have judged at all, from a mental/emotional, and I now assert spiritual standpoint.  That means that we can carry on with discussions that go beyond the question of nature v. nurture, without having to first resolve it.  Especially since it will be argued by others for generations to come, we can move forward with our own work of getting into the kingdom and working the harvest for Jesus.

I put my ideas on paper, using a bit of math notation:



So if we can agree this far -- that it is sufficiently excellent to forgive quickly, in order to realize the same gains I think that failure to judge realizes -- then we can move forward in terms of mental/spiritual/emotional strategy.  It would be a shame if the two of us, both with great passion for our work for God and for our points of view we've worked thus far to attain, let this minor difference in assumptions keep us from making a great team.  Smiley

Any thoughts?

Alan
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 04:02:56 AM by Alan » Logged

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ncjohn
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« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2012, 02:10:56 PM »

I like your approach on this Alan. I agree that the nature vs nurture argument is going to go on ad infinitum. There is evidence for and against both sides and, as far as I've seen, no strong enough correlation for either.

I tend to fall mostly toward the nurture side of the argument while recognizing that there is likely some nature influence as well. I have seen far too many people though who have "outgrown" the disposition they started with, or held even as young adults, sometimes in a way I would consider (there I go judging again!  Undecided) positive and other times in a negative direction, those terms for me reflecting a movement toward or away from love and compassion for purposes of this discussion.

To me, regardless of how we got to where we get to we can be "reprogrammed", at least in a large percentage of cases, toward forgiveness and diminishing judgment. Limit theory to me sums up well the journey along the continuum toward sainthood in that regard.

I know that in my 30's my stated philosopy was that 95% of the people in the world were a**holes. That might have been exagerated but it largely reflected my cynicism and dissatisfaction at the time. Over the last few years, I have discovered more and more that it was me who was the a**hole then and that I was simply projecting my own misery on to others. I have now probably progressed to the point where I only consider 34.274% of people to be a**holes.  Cheesy

For me at least there is the problem that the limit is a moving target and the progression isn't even close to constant. As Richard would say, it's a constant three steps forward, two steps back. I may be especially compassionate for a while then go through a "bad patch" for whatever reason where I feel like everyone is out to get me (maybe they are??). Or I may be doing really well overall but have one person who just pushes my buttons no matter what. Which do I work on then that would represent decreasing the delta T when the curves may well be moving in divergent directions?

In the end though, after putting in my requisite amount of "filler" on the subject, I agree that the how we got there is much less important than figuring out how to rewrite the OS so it processes differently.
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This is the effect of true charity, to be on good terms with all men, to consider no one your enemy, and to live at peace with those who hate peace.--Robert Bellarmine
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« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2012, 09:01:20 AM »

Yes, i agree, and i wish sometimes it were easier to be reprogrammed. The bump in the progress usually lies in forgiving yourself somehow.
I wish there was a drive thru, low carb., re-wiring hut to get er done more instantaneously.

Lana
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ncjohn
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« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2012, 09:57:16 AM »

 
I wish there was a drive thru, low carb., re-wiring hut to get er done more instantaneously.

Lana

Lana, you have always had that ability to come up with the interesting word picture for these things. Smiley

Can I get that with a low fat order of fries and a latte?
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This is the effect of true charity, to be on good terms with all men, to consider no one your enemy, and to live at peace with those who hate peace.--Robert Bellarmine
Alan
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« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2012, 10:01:32 AM »

Yes, i agree, and i wish sometimes it were easier to be reprogrammed. The bump in the progress usually lies in forgiving yourself somehow.
I wish there was a drive thru, low carb., re-wiring hut to get er done more instantaneously.

Lana

Something like this?

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« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2012, 07:17:59 PM »

I would love it to look like this Alan, but i have found that there are not usually others around me when stuff like this happens.
For some reason, i feel like Big Bird when he tells everyone about Snuffy (Snufalupicus). Every time he tries, Snuffy has to go
and there is never any proof that Snuffy was there. So everyone thinks that Snuffy is a character in Big Birds imagination.

There is also the ET special cleansing unit....

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cheddarsox
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« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2012, 09:35:29 AM »

I guess I agree with Onesheep's assertion that judgement is hard wired. I believe it is. As mortal beings our brains do a quick assesment and make a judgment call, even if it's just whether or not to use anymore conscious energy on something.

This is in agreement with my life experience as a wholistic being, not, as some people experienc, a soul or spirit in a body. My spirituality is integrated with my body. At no time do I or have I experienced myself as anything other than mortal. Once my body dies...I have no reason to assume my spirit or personality continue to exist so it serves me both spiritually and physically to make initial judgements.

BUT...I am coming to this thread cold and the judgements I am thinking of don't automatically lead to requiring any sort of forgiveness so maybe I am commenting on some other sort of judgement.

Still and all, my brain immediately sorts stimuli. I can't stop it, and I don't see any benefit in doing so. If nothing else, feeling my authentic reaction to something affords me an opportunity for self evaluation. as well as conscious evaluation of the stimuli.

However, I can see why, in a theology of eternal soul...the idea of not experiencing life as if one is mortal would seem like a desirable.

To me it seems like denial, and thus delusion, and thus a hindrence to my spirituality.
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ncjohn
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« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2012, 01:08:44 PM »

Hi cheddar, great to see you again!

I would certainly agree with you that there is an innate ability, possibly even a drive, toward some kind of judgment. I think that would be part of our survival mechanism as, if nothing else, we have to learn quickly to discriminate between things that might endanger our survival versus those that are at least seemingly benign.

In this particular discussion I think we've dealing with the idea of making moral judgments about people and their motives. For me the jury is out on whether that is innate or learned or some combination of the two. For me, while those things might be interesting from a philosophical point of view, the important thing is whether we can come to a point of being willing to suspend that judgment and forgive moral lapses on the part of ourselves or others as the inevitable products of flawed human beings.

A major goal of mine is for that to become my way of being. Not that I will work on improving my reaction time but that over time I will be able to think differently and be differently without a need to make judgments or speculate about others' motives exept in so far as knowing why they might be doing something might help them, or me, work on the programming that creates that negative motivation.
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This is the effect of true charity, to be on good terms with all men, to consider no one your enemy, and to live at peace with those who hate peace.--Robert Bellarmine
Alan
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« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2012, 03:39:28 PM »

I would love it to look like this Alan, but i have found that there are not usually others around me when stuff like this happens.
For some reason, i feel like Big Bird when he tells everyone about Snuffy (Snufalupicus). Every time he tries, Snuffy has to go
and there is never any proof that Snuffy was there. So everyone thinks that Snuffy is a character in Big Birds imagination.

There is also the ET special cleansing unit....




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« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2012, 03:49:30 PM »

I guess I agree with Onesheep's assertion that judgement is hard wired. I believe it is. As mortal beings our brains do a quick assesment and make a judgment call, even if it's just whether or not to use anymore conscious energy on something.

This is in agreement with my life experience as a wholistic being, not, as some people experienc, a soul or spirit in a body. My spirituality is integrated with my body. At no time do I or have I experienced myself as anything other than mortal. Once my body dies...I have no reason to assume my spirit or personality continue to exist so it serves me both spiritually and physically to make initial judgements.

BUT...I am coming to this thread cold and the judgements I am thinking of don't automatically lead to requiring any sort of forgiveness so maybe I am commenting on some other sort of judgement.

Still and all, my brain immediately sorts stimuli. I can't stop it, and I don't see any benefit in doing so. If nothing else, feeling my authentic reaction to something affords me an opportunity for self evaluation. as well as conscious evaluation of the stimuli.

However, I can see why, in a theology of eternal soul...the idea of not experiencing life as if one is mortal would seem like a desirable.

To me it seems like denial, and thus delusion, and thus a hindrence to my spirituality.

This thread is based on ongoing discussions we've been having about judging, as in moral judgment, and/or a desire to punish, and whether these are "built into" babies or if we teach them to be so.

I don't have any disagreement with the types of judgments you're talking about.  That is, assessments of the environment.  There are those we think of, and there are those that our perceptions and bodies process and guide us accordingly.  I like your idea about your spirituality is integrated with your body.  I find it telling that the central nervous system really has all parts of the body connected like the communications network it is.  Why do we think all of our thoughts are centered in the brain?  I say they are all connected; our senses, our reflexes, AND our conscious thoughts, and others.

It sounds like your are actually making value judgments, but more about what is a good direction to take, rather than moral judgments.  I'm interested to here more about the denial and delusional aspects you're talking about.

Alan
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« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2012, 07:56:35 PM »

OneSheep, this is for anyone to chime in but I'll address this OP to you for rhetorical simplicity.

We have gone around as to whether it is humanly possible to skip the judgment step altogether, and I think I have a way to have meaningful discussion, without the benefit of a conclusion to that debate.

In other words, you are saying that if you are really good at forgiving you will do so right away -- almost instantly, if I may put words into your mouth.  I say that we can go another step, and learn to fail to judge in the first place.  You don't buy that because you believe that judgment is inherent in our human design and cannot be avoided.  And I have contended that judgment is software, not hardware, and is programmed into us, and can be programmed out.

A scientist might spend his lifetime trying to resolve the issue.  An engineer will look at what we do know, and see how to work with it.  In this case I'm using the concept of "limits," borrowed from mathematics, to explain.

If I judge someone's sin (including my own) and then a year later I forgive, then I have spent a year in unforgiveness, which I will refer to as "stewing time."  During that year I suffer anxiety, depression, doubt, anger, and what have you because of that unforgiven sin festering in our minds.  What if you could forgive in a month?  Maybe it's a bad month, but then it's over and you'd have 11 months of no sin-on-my-mind.  What if I could forgive in a day?  A minute?  A tenth of a second?

I'm suggesting that if you learn to forgive soon enough -- say in less than two seconds -- that you may feel a momentary "nudge" but other than that, your stewing time just isn't sufficient to produce a lot of misery due to unforgiveness of a sin.  If you get a "spike" then that's wonderful, because the Lord is working in you so fast you don't even feel the surgery five seconds later.

Now here comes the engineering part:  for all practical purposes, if I can forgive quickly enough, my "stewing time" is so low that I might as well not have judged at all, from a mental/emotional, and I now assert spiritual standpoint.  

Oooooo....stewing time..... boy does that appeal to my inner nerd....   Grin  Stewing calculus.  Actually, it doesn't sound very tasty.

Quote
That means that we can carry on with discussions that go beyond the question of nature v. nurture, without having to first resolve it.  Especially since it will be argued by others for generations to come, we can move forward with our own work of getting into the kingdom and working the harvest for Jesus.

I never had an issue at all with the idea of bypassing or training ourselves out of judging, so it's all good with me.  I figured we were always on the same "team" so to speak.  It is silly for the "nature v nurture" stuff to be a point of contention on how to bring about the kingdom, because we all agree that forgiveness is key, and I thought we had kinda settled there.  We are on the same page.  

I am saying, in addition, that we can "forgive" our compulsion to judge as a gift from God.  I see it as reconciling with God for giving us the capacity, the compulsion, to judge.    

Quote

So if we can agree this far -- that it is sufficiently excellent to forgive quickly, in order to realize the same gains I think that failure to judge realizes -- then we can move forward in terms of mental/spiritual/emotional strategy.  It would be a shame if the two of us, both with great passion for our work for God and for our points of view we've worked thus far to attain, let this minor difference in assumptions keep us from making a great team.  Smiley

Cool.  Where do we begin?  I have been really pushing forgiveness in the CAF concerning the Iran v Israel/US issue.  War is so much a part of the agenda.  Catholics aren't even aware, for instance, that the Holy Father opposed our invasion of Iraq, nor do they understand why JPII did oppose it.  I've been trying to emphasize the importance of forgiveness/reconcilitation as a solution.

I don't know when I can get back to this site, but John, I am still laughing about the thousandth place on your percentage, Lana, I do like the drive-thru scenario, and cheddarsox, I hope to get back to you also.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 08:01:42 PM by OneSheep » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2012, 10:34:38 AM »

Yes, i agree, and i wish sometimes it were easier to be reprogrammed. The bump in the progress usually lies in forgiving yourself somehow.
I wish there was a drive thru, low carb., re-wiring hut to get er done more instantaneously.

Lana

I remember wanting to simply be God's puppet.  For example, I would get really depressed (still do, occasionally) and then feel even worse about not getting anything done.  God, if He could only move the strings, yank me out of that state.

Now when I feel depressed, I let myself be depressed.  I accept my depression, which almost always takes me to a place where I can smile and pull out.  I let myself be lazy too, I have "embraced my laziness", so to speak.  We have so many things internally and externally telling us to go,go,go, my times of wanting to stop, rest, and thumb my nose to it all are assertions of my autonomy. 
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OneSheep
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« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2012, 10:55:50 AM »

I guess I agree with Onesheep's assertion that judgement is hard wired. I believe it is. As mortal beings our brains do a quick assesment and make a judgment call, even if it's just whether or not to use anymore conscious energy on something.

This is in agreement with my life experience as a wholistic being, not, as some people experienc, a soul or spirit in a body. My spirituality is integrated with my body. At no time do I or have I experienced myself as anything other than mortal. Once my body dies...I have no reason to assume my spirit or personality continue to exist so it serves me both spiritually and physically to make initial judgements.

BUT...I am coming to this thread cold and the judgements I am thinking of don't automatically lead to requiring any sort of forgiveness so maybe I am commenting on some other sort of judgement.

Still and all, my brain immediately sorts stimuli. I can't stop it, and I don't see any benefit in doing so. If nothing else, feeling my authentic reaction to something affords me an opportunity for self evaluation. as well as conscious evaluation of the stimuli.

However, I can see why, in a theology of eternal soul...the idea of not experiencing life as if one is mortal would seem like a desirable.

To me it seems like denial, and thus delusion, and thus a hindrence to my spirituality.

I think the judgments that Alan was referring to were those that lead to dualistic good/evil thinking toward people or parts of ourselves, of creation itself.

I fully accept a spirituality that does not consider an afterlife.  I certainly lean toward the idea of an afterlife, and belief itself is helpful to me. 

Have you read Life of Pi?  Fantastic book, influenced a lot of my thinking about "belief" itself.  Now the movie is out, and I am so looking forward to seeing it! 

There is so little that we really know about the universe... 
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Alan
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« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2012, 01:40:29 PM »


Still and all, my brain immediately sorts stimuli. I can't stop it, and I don't see any benefit in doing so. If nothing else, feeling my authentic reaction to something affords me an opportunity for self evaluation. as well as conscious evaluation of the stimuli.


Maybe I can actually dissect my own ideas about this a little.  I guess it isn't the "good/bad" or "right/wrong" decision I have a problem with, but its emotional impact on me.  If my peace and happiness depends on the outcome of my "judgment," then that's where I was looking.  So for example, I could say, "boy that was an evil thing to do," on a friend-to-friend basis, and perhaps according to certain standards of conduct it would have been considered evil, but in my heart I did not think, "and therefore I think less of you," or "and therefore I feel angry/self-righteous/whatever about the situation."

So it really is getting into words here.  Maybe I need to separate the judgment from the emotional reaction, in some of my models.

Alan
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« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2012, 07:39:42 PM »

LOL .... this could be another interpretation of "stewing time."

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« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2012, 10:54:01 AM »


Still and all, my brain immediately sorts stimuli. I can't stop it, and I don't see any benefit in doing so. If nothing else, feeling my authentic reaction to something affords me an opportunity for self evaluation. as well as conscious evaluation of the stimuli.


Maybe I can actually dissect my own ideas about this a little.  I guess it isn't the "good/bad" or "right/wrong" decision I have a problem with, but its emotional impact on me.  If my peace and happiness depends on the outcome of my "judgment," then that's where I was looking.  So for example, I could say, "boy that was an evil thing to do," on a friend-to-friend basis, and perhaps according to certain standards of conduct it would have been considered evil, but in my heart I did not think, "and therefore I think less of you," or "and therefore I feel angry/self-righteous/whatever about the situation."

So it really is getting into words here.  Maybe I need to separate the judgment from the emotional reaction, in some of my models.

Alan

I spent years trying to "separate the sin from the sinner" so to speak.  It's a tough go.  When someone breaks a rule in my rulebook, that person is immediately in my non-self box, the person is an idiot or whatever.  When I fight the compulsion, I just find myself in denial.  But just like observing our own anger takes us a step away from the emotion (we no longer are the emotion, we feel the emotion), observing the fact that I have condemned someone also gives me a step back from the condemnation itself.  Then I know it is time to forgive. 

Are there some times, Alan, when you do find yourself unwittingly condemning a person, despite your discipline?  If so, does that represent a failure on your part, do you subsequently judge yourself as less holy or less anything if you have condemned a person?  This is very understandable.  I often condemn myself when I realize I have condemned others, and then I have myself to forgive too.  It all works.

I read a book that had as one of its core concepts the idea of nondualism.  The author unwittingly went into a small diatribe, right in her book, against a certain group of people.  I wrote her, saying I did not belong to the group, but here is their point of view.  She was clueless on the other point of view, and thanked me for my letter.  I went to a conference on nondualism once, and a speaker there was really dissing industrial leaders; he was definitely in condemnation mode.  I spoke with him afterwards, asking him about his approach, had he considered forgiveness?, it is a more fruitful way to bring people to our way of thinking.  He rationalized his condemnation, and then didn't have time to talk to me. 

To me, the only "judgments" that are an issue are those judgments which are a result of the emotional reaction.  It is the emotion itself, resentment, that forms the cognition "he is an idiot".   
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« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2012, 05:06:18 PM »

I spent years trying to "separate the sin from the sinner" so to speak.  It's a tough go.  When someone breaks a rule in my rulebook, that person is immediately in my non-self box, the person is an idiot or whatever.  When I fight the compulsion, I just find myself in denial.  But just like observing our own anger takes us a step away from the emotion (we no longer are the emotion, we feel the emotion), observing the fact that I have condemned someone also gives me a step back from the condemnation itself.  Then I know it is time to forgive.

For the purposes of this thread, there is no particular limit to how quickly you can do it, can you?  Can you learn to get over a "typical strength" transgression in less than five minutes?  Five seconds?  A blink of an eye or nod of the head?

For example, I used to go around for weeks talking of a traffic situation that annoyed me.  I progressed to days, hours, then I would complain to those in the car about annoying traffic, and finally just shut up and enjoy the ride, as if someone else were driving, I'm comfortable and in good company, and slow down a bit or whatever it takes to avoid the annoyance.

This did not come through self-discipline.  It came through self-reprogramming.  I have very little self-discipline.  Unless it directly hurts me or anyone I care about, if I want to do something, good or evil I'll either do it, atttempt to do it, or at least seriously consider it.  So back in the day, I wouldn't think a moment if I could do something to hurt the other driver involved.  Like I'd laugh if I saw them lose control during a reckless maneuver.  One I talked about for years was a serious tailgater I dodged in such a way it rear-ended another car, in 1981 in my new Monte Carlo I got for graduating college.

So for me it wasn't about controlling myself but I had to disconnect my own feelings and emotions from their behavior.  If they are moving over, just slow down; don't slow down AND fume.  And it is because I've changed my world view.  Anyone who's known me long knows that no matter how wild I may sound, I'm always sincere.  I still slip every few days I get annoyed, especially if I'm late.  But that's when God's calling me to stretch my horizons beyond getting annoyed even in those cases.  He has to give me enough of them to practice on, if I'm to master it so I now thank the Lord for such little annoyances.

Quote
Are there some times, Alan, when you do find yourself unwittingly condemning a person, despite your discipline?  If so, does that represent a failure on your part, do you subsequently judge yourself as less holy or less anything if you have condemned a person?  This is very understandable.  I often condemn myself when I realize I have condemned others, and then I have myself to forgive too.  It all works.

Once in a long while I'll become annoyed with something I did, but I get over it quickly as I have to learn to live with it.  I think I make mistakes, but I never think of myself as any less, or less holy, because of it.  I do what I want to do for free will, and I'm not ashamed to admit that I have my own precise ideas about what it right and wrong that Shakespeare could never explain in a million years, much less within the text of a Catechism.

That's because from the time I spoke my first words, my dad taught me that correction was a loving, and growing process to enjoy, not one of pain and lab-rat conditioning of punishment.  Sure I got a few spankings; what kid in the 60s didn't?  Even thing other kids would have gotten slapped for, my dad just explained to me that I should say this or that because it upsets certain people by making them think blah blah blah.  Then I'd say, "oh, thank you Dad, it'll never happen again," and we'd hug.  When I'd write a paper for school, doing my best, I'd give it to him and the more red ink the more we would have reason to have a great time talking about the changes, and I would see my paper was 10 times better for just a few changes at times.  My dad taught us excellence, and he plus my engineering background make me prone toward solutions and objectives, not process.  So I didn't need to go through the lab rat training at home; the nuns at school took away my innocence just fine, and the world finished up the job and I got locked up.  Grin


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I read a book that had as one of its core concepts the idea of nondualism.  The author unwittingly went into a small diatribe, right in her book, against a certain group of people.  I wrote her, saying I did not belong to the group, but here is their point of view.  She was clueless on the other point of view, and thanked me for my letter.  I went to a conference on nondualism once, and a speaker there was really dissing industrial leaders; he was definitely in condemnation mode.  I spoke with him afterwards, asking him about his approach, had he considered forgiveness?, it is a more fruitful way to bring people to our way of thinking.  He rationalized his condemnation, and then didn't have time to talk to me. 

To me, the only "judgments" that are an issue are those judgments which are a result of the emotional reaction.  It is the emotion itself, resentment, that forms the cognition "he is an idiot".   

You are right.  Even to observe non-dualism actually requires dualism.  We non-dualistic thinkers have to be experts at dualistic thinking as well, or we will have no reasonable communications with the "others."  So nothing wrong with dualistic thinking, or non-dualistic thinking.  It's when one is considered better than the other that they start to be competing theories, rather than two different points along a spectrum or rainbow of different ways to think?

Have you ever heard of Mooji?

Mooji:  "Duality is not a mistake."

Alan
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« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2012, 12:44:25 PM »


You are right.  Even to observe non-dualism actually requires dualism.  We non-dualistic thinkers have to be experts at dualistic thinking as well, or we will have no reasonable communications with the "others."  So nothing wrong with dualistic thinking, or non-dualistic thinking.  It's when one is considered better than the other that they start to be competing theories, rather than two different points along a spectrum or rainbow of different ways to think?

Have you ever heard of Mooji?

Mooji:  "Duality is not a mistake."

Alan

Thanks for the youtube link.  I totally agree with Mooji.  Using the words "not a mistake", though, may be a matter of splitting hairs on the word "mistake".  He says in the clip that "we have no enemies".  He also referred to "not escaping", except from our projections. 

The perception of enemy vs non-enemy is a projection, and is dualism, and is really the only dualism, to me, that is an issue at all.  There is who/what I condemn, and who/what I don't. 
I accept who/what I don't condemn.
I don't accept who/what I do condemn, and then I can get into the mode of wanting that bad driver to get into a wreck, just like the babies in the morality study from Yale.

So, is good/evil dualism referring to people or parts of ourselves a mistake?  It's not, I agree with Mooji.   At times it is beneficial to see people or parts of ourselves in this way, so that we are motivated to avoid the same behaviors the "bad" people do, so such dualism has its place.  So, is such dualism (this person is good, that one bad, this part of me is good, that part is bad) functional?  yes.  Is this form of dualism an illusion? yes.  Does it reflect the truth? no.  Is it an issue to address with forgiveness and understanding?  Yes.

Now, ultimately, is nondualism a "better" way of thinking?  To me, the cognition follows the emotional aspect.  The question that hits the mark more closely is "Is forgiveness and reconciliation the better way of living?"  Answer: Yes.  Non-dualism in terms of good v. evil will follow the forgiveness and reconciliation. 

For those of you who happen to be reading my opinions for the first time, I am not referring to labeling people's acts as good vs. evil; I find that such labels are useful.  I am referring to our innate drives.

BTW, I finally worked out all my issues with that serial killer you referred to on the other thread.  My final issue was a disgust issue.   

But as you have said, there is no need to get into the subtle differences of our approaches.  The bottom line is still the forgiveness part.   

 
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« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2012, 01:39:23 PM »

The perception of enemy vs non-enemy is a projection, and is dualism, and is really the only dualism, to me, that is an issue at all.  There is who/what I condemn, and who/what I don't. 
I accept who/what I don't condemn.
I don't accept who/what I do condemn, and then I can get into the mode of wanting that bad driver to get into a wreck, just like the babies in the morality study from Yale.

When I heard the Mooji video I got an abstract take on people who are learning to think non-dualistically.  They find it rewarding and think therefore it's better than what they had.  And yet it's only better because it is built upon a foundation of dualilsm.

By dualism I don't necessarily mean splitting people into groups; for me that is just one small slice of the applicability of the term.  For me it can be various forms of measuring, grouping, preferring, counting.  Like saying it's three against one is dualistic.

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Now, ultimately, is nondualism a "better" way of thinking?  To me, the cognition follows the emotional aspect.  The question that hits the mark more closely is "Is forgiveness and reconciliation the better way of living?"  Answer: Yes.  Non-dualism in terms of good v. evil will follow the forgiveness and reconciliation. 

For those of you who happen to be reading my opinions for the first time, I am not referring to labeling people's acts as good vs. evil; I find that such labels are useful.  I am referring to our innate drives.

It seems we're using different meaning for the words dualism.  But if the question is, whether forgiveness and reconciliation are a "better" way to live, compared for example to holding grudges, then I must say "yes" and since it's my personal opinion it stands without explanation or rebuttal.  Others are at different points in their lives; they might be going through a phase like I did a few months ago.  Roll Eyes


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BTW, I finally worked out all my issues with that serial killer you referred to on the other thread.  My final issue was a disgust issue.

That guy was pretty amazing, wasn't it?  Amazingly disgusting things, being described totally clinically -- and puts on illusion as if he genuinely cared for his victims' comfort.

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But as you have said, there is no need to get into the subtle differences of our approaches.  The bottom line is still the forgiveness part.   

OK, the forgiveness part is your bottom line.  So I assume "quick to forgive" similar to 1 Cor 13:5 "... it [love] does not brood over injury..."

I'd say my approach focuses more on another part of that same verse 1 Cor 13:5 "... it is not quick-tempered ..."

So my approach is not to let things trigger you in the first place.  For this thread, I submit that can be done at least to the extent you don't notice having been triggered.

Your approach is that when things to trigger you, you should immediately forgive.  For this thread, I submit that can be done quickly ... how quickly -- a day, an hour, a second, a millisecond -- depends on the individual's frame of mind and circumstances.

Also yours must be in place, and operational (that means occasional testing  Grin ) as a backup for the times my approach inevitably fails from time to time, and is the primary building block that gets you close enough to think you're using my approach.   Wink

If our boundaries were never challenged, life would be boring without any human drama.  So if we never got triggered, we'd never get exercised in our forgiveness.  But the less we get triggered, the more we can handle emotionally/spiritually/mentally challenging times without distraction from heartstrings being tugged by the environment.

So the agreement I want to reach is this:  we humans can learn to forgive to the point where we don't consciously notice anything, a small twitch at the most, when confronted with a disagreeable experience.  Maybe that's not the best wording but it's a starting point.

Alan

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