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Author Topic: Popes said to leave church  (Read 5114 times)
Ericp
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« on: August 29, 2012, 09:21:48 PM »

I guess i made the right choice by leaving the church if I am going to be looked at as a Judas.  I have been trying to make my way back to the church for awhile.  Coming to CAF now Wordsfree. The Popes statement in the following article pretty much shut the door on that option. 

Pope suggests it’s best to be ‘honest’ and leave the Church if you don’t believe: HLI priest
BY JOHN-HENRY WESTEN
Tue Aug 28, 2012 17:09 ESTComments (94)Tags: Abortion, Benedict Xvi

 
 
VATICAN CITY, August 28, 2012 (LifeSiteNews.com) - In his Angelus address Sunday, Pope Benedict XVI spoke of Judas’ betrayal of Christ, saying that Judas’ problem was failing to leave Christ when he no longer believed – a “falsehood,” said the Pope, “which is a mark of the devil.”

“Judas,” said Pope Benedict, “could have left, as many of the disciples did; indeed, he would have left if he were honest. Instead he remained with Jesus. He did not remain because of faith, or because of love, but with the secret intention of taking vengeance on the Master.”


Pope Benedict
According to Human Life International Rome Director, Monsignor Ignacio Barreiro, the comments are very relevant to the current situation in the Catholic Church.  Msgr. Barreiro, who holds a doctorate in Dogmatic theology, told LifeSiteNews that “for those Catholics who cannot bring themselves to believe the formal teachings of the Church on life and family matters it would be more honest to leave the Church rather than betraying Her.”

But, he added, “We regret very much that the person is so inclined and we wish they would have a conversion to truly believe.”

Pope Benedict, in his remarks, drew a distinction between believing and understanding, noting that some disciples walked away from Christ because they did not believe. However, he said, even those who remained believed before they fully understood.

The HLI Rome Director commented, “Intellectual difficulty is not disobedience.”  He explained, “You might have teachings you find difficult to accept. However, (in those circumstances) it is virtuous to believe since you make a sacrifice of your own will, taking as your own the mind of the Church.”

Msgr. Barriero noted that submission of will and intellect is required when it comes to the official teachings of the Church, rather than prudential opinions.  “For example,” he said, “it is required for the teaching on abortion, but there can be legitimate differences of opinion among Catholics on how to take care of the poor.”

Giving another example, he pointed out that “while the Church can never ordain women as priests, there can be difference on how to ensure all are provided access to medical care.”

The pope concluded with a prayer asking God to “help us to believe in Jesus, as St. Peter did, and to always be sincere with Him and with all people.”

CLICK ‘LIKE’ IF YOU ARE PRO-LIFE!
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Ericp
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« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2012, 09:54:49 PM »

Math 23:1-36 comes to mind
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Alan
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« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2012, 06:18:17 AM »

I'm glad I have become as emotionally stable as I have, or this article (and not so long ago) would have triggered me into a full scale declaration of war against the Vatican.

Even within the last year, I was pondering the sheer evil of the Church's behavior -- modern day behavior -- so badly I literally would have pushed the button if it were tied to explosives for all the Vatican buildings.  I would have left some of the churches so the people would have a place to huddle and try to figure why their church's institutional bureaucracy was under attack.  Then I realized there is too much Vatican DNA around.  It would spring up again.  So I can fight that war, but that's one that will never cease.

But now it occurs to me this is a spiritual war.  The Pope, if for no other reason than by virtue of attempting to do a job that Jesus says can't be done, is more tempted than anyone else to turn to evil ways.  And he shows it.

Luke 16:13
No servant can serve two masters. He will either hate one and love the other, or be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.”

How comical is it, anyway, that the ones we look to for the most holy declarations and all, are in charge of the real estate and other assets and money flow of the Church.  Maybe this is Jesus's Church, but they listen to other guides who do not and cannot know Jesus.

I had my own run-in with this mentality that those who aren't good enough should shape up, or preferably, ship out.  That was my previous pastor.  He was the one who called me a "loose cannon" for asking the parish council why we don't either follow the teachings or Christ, or the diocesan policies, or admit that we're not.  He was uncomfortable with my behavior because I was manic, so he banned me from all parish property save picking up my kids and playing music for Mass.  His opinion was that the church needed to be smaller, but better.  He didn't care how many people we got rid of, so that we could get down to the core few who really do participate, etc.  Obviously he would not have wanted Jesus's friends to pollute our sacred grounds, and of course Jesus was just kidding about coming for the sick and broken, and the Church being a hospital for sinners.

The first he unleashed his policy that I heard, was at a parent meeting for school kids.  He made it clear they would rather have fewer, better kids (whose parents donate more money especially) than what they had now.  I knew he would run the place into the ground, and now that he's left we're cleaning the mess up.  A once thriving school is barely gasping for air, now, and may start shutting down some of the grade levels this year.  Father Birket, we got what you wanted us to have -- a failing school.  There was a lay committee that decided if each family was "Catholic enough" for their kid to go to school here.  Since I had been head of the home/school committee, many anxious parents phoned me and I couldn't help because the money mongers took everything over and rejected out of hand my assertion in a parish council meeting that "since we're in the business of delivering God to the people, maybe we should consider how God would have us do it.  Literally, they screamed at me for saying that at a parish council meeting.

So 10 years ago my shrink made me quit all parish activities.

This pope, if this report is accurate (it sounds like this Barreiro added insult to the pope's alleged injury) is demonstrating the same evil mindset that was in my ex-pastor.  (Oh btw he was even the vicar general in our doicese -- whatever the hell that is.)  Basically anybody who doesn't kiss their ass, jump to their tune RIGHT NOW, should get the hell out and leave it to those of us who will cooperate with us while we operate the Church with dignity and decorum.

It's just terrible those annoying sinners keep getting in the way of the Church doing her job to be a teacher of love.  It will be so much better when they're gone.  We can even go back to everything pre-Vatican II without pesky opposition from the disobediently innovative.

Luckily I finally came to terms that the Church must be evil, and increasingly so, because that's part of its job.  Doesn't mean I have to like it, and it doesn't mean I can't dedicate my life to bringing down those haughty mentalities such as this, who use Jesus as a weapon against each other.  Jesus came to divide, and here's how.  His Church scares the sheep into believing they had better stay inside the fence or they will be cast out -- nobody will look for them because we don't want them in "our" church, anyway.

I will, however, reserve judgment on whether Papa B16 is the antichrist or not.  Grin

Alan
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Lanasshoebox
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« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2012, 08:45:38 AM »

Wow, these two posts have two very very different tones to them, and i truly would love to read, see, or hear the original information of the subject at hand. I did not see the information as offensively as both of you did, from what was seen and quoted here. I do know that there is good and bad everywhere, and that every word from anyone holds the possibility of being a truth, a desire, or an agenda.

However, i see the quotes as plea's..not make a choice or leave demand. I see someone trying to make us think about why we are in the church to begin with. Title without thought perhaps? Following your peers maybe? But definitely there is a difference between the following...

The church states that abortion is wrong
     A) you do not believe so
     B) you believe and see it is correct, but may have difficulty walking this path

This is two different mind sets. A desire to BE in a place that will help you at least desire to be a better and loving child of God. Or is it a decision that is made to believe the church is wrong, and you take every moment you can to say she is wrong. Yet you stay, and continue to reek havoc with anyone and every one you can to prove her wrong...and damage many in the progress of your membership. If infact you are the latter, move on...and for this i agree.

Lana
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ncjohn
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« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2012, 09:47:28 AM »

Lana, I do see the language as a "shape up or leave" demand. It is largely the product of those who see only black and white with no shades of gray. It is those who claim, with complete certainty in their own opinons, that "gray is the devil's favorite color."

I am against abortion. But I can still concede the possibility of it being the best viable option under some extreme conditions.

I understand the Church's position on birth control. But I totally and 100% disagree with their position that it is compassionate or realiistic to ask a married couple in Africa (or anywhere else for that matter), when one of the spouses has AIDS, to refrain from all sexual activity for the rest of their married life rather than use a condom.

I understand that the Church has claimed that they are "unable" to ordain women, and I've listened to their arguments. I remain far less than convinced that their arguments are valid or that they fall into the category of "faith and morals" which is necessary for them to claim to be "infallible" teachings that must be adhered to.

In fact I have studied pretty closely the issue of infallibility itself and given that the Church has erred in the past in proclaiming things to be heresy that in fact were not they clearly don't have that aura of infallibility that they like to claim.

I don't feel the least bit like a Judas, nor do I feel any less Catholic, for having those beliefs. I too have run into the types that Alan referenced who want the "smaller, purer Church" that follows like robotic soldiers following Hitler and questions nothing. I'm sorry but I truly believe that if we don't question we never truly "own" our faith and are just mindlessly parroting back rules.

In saying that I'm not suggesting that I should mislead anyone about what the Church teaches, or that I should claim that my own opinions trump Church teaching. If I discuss my beliefs I have no problem explaining where and I why I may disagree. I won't be intellectually dishonest about it but neither will I be forced out of the Church because I won't blindly give full obedience to things I consider to be so much BS.

I do understand that obedience to what you consider to be the Higher Authority is a virtue, even while possibly questioning. Unfortunately when the Higher Authority has shown itself not to hold the Higher Moral Ground it becomes difficult to have any idea if what they are asking is even legitimate.

I won't leave my Catholic family just because they may not be perfect anymore than I think they should leave me because I'm not, or that I would leave my own worldly family. We're all imperfect and we're all on the journey. We get to places at different speeds and sometimes take detours because we get off the road and get lost. You don't jump somebody for taking the detour, especially when you can realize that the detour will ultimately make them stronger. You compassionately wait for them to find their way back and then--if you're REALLY smart--you listen to what they have to teach you from what they learned out there.

As Richard Rohr comments so often: "Ironically you come to God by doing it wrong rather than by doing it right." It is from our mistakes that we come to know that we need God and we can't do it on our own. Those who want everybody to automatically have it right, or at least shut up and pretend they do, are living in a fantasy world just waiting to crash down on them.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 09:50:18 AM by ncjohn » Logged

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This is the effect of true charity, to be on good terms with all men, to consider no one your enemy, and to live at peace with those who hate peace.--Robert Bellarmine
Alan
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« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2012, 10:43:37 AM »

John, you said a great deal, and well.  I particularly like the way you worded:

You don't jump somebody for taking the detour, especially when you can realize that the detour will ultimately make them stronger. You compassionately wait for them to find their way back and then--if you're REALLY smart--you listen to what they have to teach you from what they learned out there.

I don't think I've ever heard it put better.  I tell people they can stay in their comfort zone of what they think the Church tells them, while I go out and do missions outside, and come back in and report results.  They don't f'ing GET that.  On the manufacturing line when you want to improve the process, are you going to first exclude the people who have made errors from the discussion?  Or the ones who were caught deviating from the process?  No, you're going to interview them and carefully analyze what they say to make the process better -- either avoid what went wrong or incorporate what wouldn't have gone right had they not deviated.



One good point Lana made, is the difference between members of the Church who just don't get it, or who disagree and may or may not comply, and those who are actively trying to take the Church down (like the way I get from time to time).

We could look at this document as a white corpuscle in the Body of Christ which the Catholics define and over which the Catholics preside.  When attacked by an enemy, they kill or expel that enemy, or defeat it in whatever way to make it quit doing what it's doing.  It's like putting them in prison; cast them out and get them out of our streets, but put them where they cannot damage our utopian dreams.  Face it; if she didn't hold to her guns, she would have been trampled thousands of years ago and I appreciate all the popes and Church Militant who gave their lives and possibly even their souls to keep the institution at least to the point the the Word could be copied all over the Internet.  Now the Good News has been preached to all nations.

The problem is the Church has two types of immune system disorder.  She has allergies against parts of her own Body, and she tends to scratch or sneeze against alleged heretics who she thinks are the cause of the disease.  She doesn't realize the heretics are also parts of the Body, and like Jesus said, the parts like to compete to keep each other in top form so they say, "we don't need you."  Nothing to get a body part proving itself like telling it that we don't need it.  So we could also look at this document as a "sneeze" by an allergen.  This is the part that pisses me off, and John, and others like us -- we come into the Church, a part of the Church, a loving member of the Church, and try to do what we believe the Lord has called us to do as our jobs within the Church.  But we get scoffed at and sneezed at.  And you know what that makes us?  Blessed.  Just read Matt 5, in the sermon on the mount, Beatitudes, and we'll see that the Church's sneeze may get ick all over us, and some say "bless you" and others say "up yours," while others just laugh.  We are now on stage so we can limp away with our tails between our legs, allowing a white corpuscle to escort us out, or we can look back and say, "hey the Pope puts pants on one leg at a time just like I do."   Actually does he?  Maybe now that he's pope he only wears dresses and not pants?  Grin

The other problem is CAIDS, the Catholic Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome, by which satan basically has keys to a loading dock in the back of the Church.  He pumps in all sorts of things, and as long as they come in through the proper door, following the proper channels, and the books all match, anything goes.  Child molesting.  Haughty attitudes.  Abandonment of those most in need.  Rulers who must be willing to do evil to rise to and keep their positions.  House divided against itself.  it is the mystics, the heretics, the self-thinking people who fight these things, but the Church will not have them because she is not designed to listen to "outside" advice -- which means "coloring outside the lines," whether you are actually an outsider or not.

So the first immune system disorder makes them reject Jesus, John, and me, and those who talk like us.  The second immune system disorder shows why the Church needs us, but unfortunately she can't see that because of the first disorder.  The second disorder is the one whose by-products (or "accidents" in philosophy lingo) are visible for all to see, even those in the world.

But now I could say that I'm just looking at too short a time span.  I'm talking about within my own lifetime this is what I see going on.

See I'm changing gears, right in the middle of the post my Church Defender Mode kicked in.

OK, so we know the Church has detected and corrected some of the errors of the first immune system.  For example, she has canonized those whom she burned as heretics.  Unfortunately for the heretics, the Church didn't see their point right at first, but evidently the message got through.  So in a moment-by-moment basis the Church is killing herself by throwing truth down the drain, but then truth rises from the dead and we canonize it.

Second immune disorder; this way we get the whole community involved with the Church in discussing matters of faith and morals.  We make sure evil is fully installed in each Church officer, to enable in them the parable of the dishonest steward.  Maybe what they do will piss off the Master, but it keeps the doors open for a few more generations to kill of a city or two now and then.  And then we can make a show of it, like burning Sodom and Gemorra or Pope John Paul II apologizing for her abuses.

So if you look at it in an eternal sense, future good is being manufactured by the evil of today.  It's like some of us are flowers about to wilt and die, others buds about to bloom, and others are the fertilizer that makes the roses fragrant.

I feel like I'm a fig tree that the church owns:  Wink

Luke 13:6-9
Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it but did not find any.  So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any.  Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’

“‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’”




Alan
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« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2012, 11:19:04 AM »


One good point Lana made, is the difference between members of the Church who just don't get it, or who disagree and may or may not comply, and those who are actively trying to take the Church down (like the way I get from time to time).


I do agree that there are those who just really want the Church to change to meet their personal views and who just don't buy into the Church's basic doctrine and dogma. That does bring up the legitimate argument: If you don't believe what they believe as a whole, then why stay? Go join a religion that believes what you believe or start one that will be what you believe.

I don't believe though that that applies to the intellectually honest person who just believes the Church has it wrong on some things that just aren't as black and white as the Church wants to paint them. At that point we become Prophets who are called by God to call the Church to accountability. Of course we'd better feel pretty sure we're right if we're going to claim to be prophets though. And of course we all know what the institution always does to prophets....

I do like your metaphor of the immune system reaction though.

I do believe fully that God uses even the bad things to bring out the good over time. One thing is pretty much for sure, the Church is spewing plenty of "fertilizer" to make future flowers bloom.
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"Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called children of God."
This is the effect of true charity, to be on good terms with all men, to consider no one your enemy, and to live at peace with those who hate peace.--Robert Bellarmine
Lanasshoebox
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« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2012, 11:43:56 AM »

spewing plenty of "fertilizer" to make future flowers bloom....BA HA HA HA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

ok, i am done laughing...

Every one tries to BE god, instead of listening and trying to be a good steward of their journey. Agendas get in the way, they MUST get a point across, and inevitably they do it in the name of God...but God does not work that way. It is never black and white with so many rules. If you are not sure, listen to the little angel on your shoulder more than old red legs!!!

Lana

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Alan
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« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2012, 03:29:57 PM »

spewing plenty of "fertilizer" to make future flowers bloom....BA HA HA HA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

ok, i am done laughing...

Every one tries to BE god, instead of listening and trying to be a good steward of their journey. Agendas get in the way, they MUST get a point across, and inevitably they do it in the name of God...but God does not work that way. It is never black and white with so many rules. If you are not sure, listen to the little angel on your shoulder more than old red legs!!!

Lana



I think I'll try fasting from taking myself seriously.  Cheesy

Alan
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« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2012, 06:57:15 PM »

Plz bare with me, Im not the best at expressing my points of view as everyone seems very articulate and knowledgable  So admittedly my views are based on personal experience.  So here goes....I find what the pope said does apply to those who don't believe in the Trinity and simply want to take down the church.  I think it is a no brainer that, sure, these individuals should leave.  But, to classify people as a "Judas" and a "devil" and a "betrayer" for honestly disagreeing on even one iota of what is taught is simply out of line and rude.  I'd even venture into saying that  it is immature leadership.  I think of a parent who has a child who disagrees with them on a certain value or moral principle.  I ask, hmmm, should that parent kick their child out of the house and call them a "Judas".  I think that this is what the pope did in this article. Instead of being the Good Shepherd he portrayed himself more like a pharisee.   

As far as an agenda, I think if you have an opinion you have an agenda and an intension.  The pope had an agenda in what he said, as I do.  My agenda is more of a hope desire and prayer that religious oppression will end.  I left the church as a result of it and haven't been participating in the sacraments other than family Masses for deceased family members and Christmas, although I have a strong desire too.  But for the reasons above I don't go. I practiced on my own because I don't want to go back in that gloom and doom, heaviness, stress and scrupulosity.  When I saw this article it really brought it all back.  Hopefully I will be able to work it out somehow.  thx Eric
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Lanasshoebox
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« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2012, 07:48:23 PM »

Eric, you said that beautifully!!! You may see banter here, but we three have been here for so many years. We are a very small group, and what we LOVE is people sharing their wounds, expressing what they can without fear of EVER being booted off or slapped on the wrist.

BTW, you fit very well here Eric, i like your style.

I have also lived through many years of being away from the church, but remaining Catholic through it all. We all have.

WF = Words free...free to speak at ease

Lana
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« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2012, 07:00:17 AM »


But, to classify people as a "Judas" and a "devil" and a "betrayer" for honestly disagreeing on even one iota of what is taught is simply out of line and rude.  I'd even venture into saying that  it is immature leadership.  I think of a parent who has a child who disagrees with them on a certain value or moral principle.  I ask, hmmm, should that parent kick their child out of the house and call them a "Judas".


I have to totally agree with you Eric. We're talking about Human Relations 101 here.

Unfortunately the Church has had this sense of Imperial Monarchy going all the way back to when Constantine "freed" Christianity and made it the state religion. Christianity immediately followed up by becoming the persecutor and getting even with the "pagans" who had persecuted them, and it has been the same ever since.

Yes, as Alan noted, it is important for the Church to be firm in its doctrines and pass them down faithfully, and we do need to be thankful for them handling that. Unfortunately, along with that came a "my way or the highway" approach to dealing with people that is totally contrary to the gospel and the clear teaching of Jesus.

The gospel, the basic cornerstone of Christianity, is about love. Period, exclamation point. It is not possible to teach love in an environment of fear. You can't beat someone into compassion. The fact that those even at the highest levels of the Church can't figure that out is extremely scary. It is exactly why I made the comment I did, that when the Church can't act from the Moral High Ground that they lack legitimacy and credibility.

If you want to get a different view of a Pope, look back at John XXIII. Vatican II was called largely because of the very kinds of issues you are addressing. It's not coincidental that we are seeing "take it or leave it" hierarchies and a turning back of Vatican II at the same time.
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This is the effect of true charity, to be on good terms with all men, to consider no one your enemy, and to live at peace with those who hate peace.--Robert Bellarmine
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« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2012, 07:25:40 AM »


The gospel, the basic cornerstone of Christianity, is about love. Period, exclamation point. It is not possible to teach love in an environment of fear. You can't beat someone into compassion. The fact that those even at the highest levels of the Church can't figure that out is extremely scary. It is exactly why I made the comment I did, that when the Church can't act from the Moral High Ground that they lack legitimacy and credibility.


It IS scary, and that's why I do everything I can here, "there," and everywhere, to break the idolatry that has grown out of fear and ignorance and has enabled the Church to act as the idol she holds herself to be.

The Church doesn't seem concerned that Jesus never took the "moral high ground" as far as I can remember.  Yet another way the Church goes against her founder.

My only peace, is that the Church can be like the "dishonest servant."  Worldly people with worldly minds, figuring out how to build long standing worldly institutions that will house the inspired Good News.  We only have to have a few on the "chewy center" to make the story alive, and the rest is to make the story go on.  The Church is interested in maintaining its presence on the earth, and Jesus knew that would happen.  The Church will kill and destroy to keep itself, and consequently the story, going.  Jesus knew that the Church, as an institution, doesn't give a damn about some random sinner, compared to keeping the doors open and the worldly enemies at bay.  And as it should be, I suppose.  I guess when Jesus said to "feed his sheep" He didn't mean to actually have to touch the sheep or anything yucky like that.  He meant to build a network of feed distribution centers.  You don't get to tell her how to run her store, even though you can see her system is flawed because it doesn't use its own product.

That gives me an idea.  The Church has become the eternal spiritual "internetwork."  WordsFree can develop browsers which will allow normal people to access the stores where they may be, and find sweet milk from the Church -- even if it has to come from a source 5000 miles and 600 years away!  These browsers will use the latest technology in quantum physics (ooh look out, new age) and pscyhology, along with ancient mysticism, and will be guided with principles we will manage here.  Hmmm.... I'll be busy this weekend; maybe I'll get going more on that next week.

Just call me a New World Man:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTqUMwyFsic
Seriously, this is very much how I think of myself... Rush has said a lot of things that resonate with me.  Smiley

The reason I compare the Church as the "dishonest servant" of Jesus, is that I see myself as the "dishonest servant" of the Church.  I know what I need to do for myself and others I care about, and it is at times terribly in conflict with what the Church would have allowed had she known what I'd been doing.  I would destroy the buildings that house the Good News, just like Abraham would have killed his own son, if I believe God led me to do it.  Actually He did, and saw that I was sincere, then He let me back off.  Destroying the Church buildings is a bigger job than I can do without some help, anyway.

Alan
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« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2012, 09:05:20 AM »

The reason I compare the Church as the "dishonest servant" of Jesus, is that I see myself as the "dishonest servant" of the Church.  I know what I need to do for myself and others I care about, and it is at times terribly in conflict with what the Church would have allowed had she known what I'd been doing.

If that is true, then Paul was certainly in the same boat, with the other Apostles--especially "Pope" Peter--constantly suspicious of what he was doing. "I will be all things to all men that some might be saved." You can bet your bottom dollar that Paul today would find himself spending more time in Ecclesial Court defending himself against changes of heresy than he would be out preaching.

For that matter, I'm pretty sure that Jesus himself would have some 'splainin' to do to the Church leaders of today just as he did to those of his own time. In fact there are an awful lot of his followers, both in the pulpit and in the pews, who wouldn't want him darkening the doorways of "their" churches.
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"Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called children of God."
This is the effect of true charity, to be on good terms with all men, to consider no one your enemy, and to live at peace with those who hate peace.--Robert Bellarmine
doormouse73
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« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2013, 03:26:40 PM »

going off what the pope has said in the O P.i must agre with him.

my reasons are this...........

Ericp said some thing on the lines of a parent kicking out a child if he disagrees with his parents,or on those lines...the thing is i dont think its nothing like that at all.its adults who are behaving in a manner thats not acceptable to fit the faith of the Church,not the child.... so kick the parents out.

not all things are black and white and the devils favourite colour is grey,is so true.

but are you not missing out the bright and wonderful colour in the middle.that is Jesus Christ....

i think its for people to look at all the efforts its putting into tying to get people back to the church and to start looking in other pastures.sorting the goats from the sheep.

and the point about Judas,he knew he had made his mistake ,because he tried to hand back the silver he sold Jesus for.but they would not allow it.it was out of his hands to change things.not like previously when he did have the power in his hands to change things and betrayed Jesus.now that is the thought provoking thought of the day for me.
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OneSheep
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« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2013, 10:36:47 AM »



Ericp said some thing on the lines of a parent kicking out a child if he disagrees with his parents,or on those lines...the thing is i dont think its nothing like that at all.its adults who are behaving in a manner thats not acceptable to fit the faith of the Church,not the child.... so kick the parents out.


I look at it this way:  The Holy Spirit seems to inform the hierarchy last about what direction the Church should go, that is, in terms of change.  I mean, it took 600 years for the Church to finally agree with Luther about a common priesthood, if I read my history right. 

So, if all of those who truly see the way of the Spirit leave, even though the Church objects in its orthodoxy, we lose out on what God really wants to tell us.  As far as abortion goes, being pro-abortion is a matter of ignorance, the same ignorance as being pro-kill-all-of-our-enemies, which is so prevalent among Christians.  If we kicked out the whole lot, we would definitely slim down the church, but such an action would seem counter-productive.  Why kick out the people who most need enlightenment?
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doormouse73
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« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2013, 12:33:17 PM »

Hello One Sheep.  Smiley

the thing i was tying to point out was that Jesus even said leave you wife,family behind and pick up your cross if you want to follow me.that is what i was trying to put over in my post.Jesus also said let the children come to me. there's is the kingdom of heaven.

on the Luther point you made, all i know is this............

The primary difference between the teachings of the Catholic Church and those of the (non-Anglican) Protestant churches that reject the ordained priesthood is that the Catholic Church believes in three different types of priests:
first, the priesthood of all believers (1 Peter 2:5–9);
second, the ordained priesthood (Acts 14:23, Romans 15:16, Titus 1:5); and
third, the high priesthood of Jesus (Hebrews 3:1)

now Luther didnt bring this to the table.it was always there.

the spirit dwells in every one. all those who believe in a creator. he is there.

he shows his presence in many ways along the journey.not just in Christianity.

now the people who want enlightenment,yes,jump on board.but i think there is one thing to remember. that is when we follow the holy spirit,we also follow the son and the father.

now some times we listen to sprits talking to us.it might not be the holy spirit.

Jesus points to this when he gave us the lords prayer.the last two line show us what he meant............

lead us not into temptation.

but deliver us from evil..

this is what im tying to point out about spirits and Holy Spirit.

this what the pope is tying to point out what is happening within the Catholic Church.

we are getting infiltrated by satan. a famous pope even said of late that the smoke of satan has entered the Vatican.so they are aware of what is going on.

a little liner my dad used to say,remember son,shit rolls down hill not up....


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Daizies
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« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2013, 01:44:04 PM »

I've been thinking a bit about this.  It does concern me, this attitude of shape up or ship out.  I've attended Protestant Churches like that, and it can get rather ugly (long story short a friend got tossed out and she tried to commit suicide).

I think that we should look at people being forced to leave vs. voluntarily leaving.  First off, I am completely opposed to people being forced out of the Church for non-compliance/non-conformity.  (I don't see excommunication as this, I understand it to be a measure to bring someone to repentance for a serious sin - and as I understand it they can still attend Mass, they just cannot receive the sacraments until they are restored).  Putting the decision into the hands of fallible people can lead to all sorts of chaos.  You know, the  "you took my parking spot so I'll find an excuse to kick you out" sort of things.

Now as for people voluntarily leaving.  I was mulling over the "Judas" imagery, and this is what I was thinking.  The concept of a Judas suggests to me a deliberate act of betrayal - an attempt to force their own way.  I think that the vast majority of dissenting Catholics (for lack of a better term), would not fall into this category.  I know a fair number of people who do not agree with the Magesterium 100%, yet they do not push these ideas onto others, nor are they in open revolt.  They obey the Church in all other matters but just cannot see eye to eye on one thing (In fact, if you did not know them well, you'd never know about it).  I don't think it is a deliberate attempt to betray the Church, but more of an inability to grasp the reasoning behind the teaching.  There are some things I don't understand, but I'll go along with it until I understand better - but that doesn't mean I'm setting out to betray the Church either.

I heard once that someone said that the Church is a hospital for sinners.  If all the people who do not "measure up" in one way or another are removed, wouldn't that be like a hospital refusing to treat someone because they are too sick?
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doormouse73
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« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2013, 02:05:51 PM »

@ Daizies

do you think that the pope meant kick people out if they dont like some of the things the church teaches?

i never understood it that way. i understand it to be people like the ones in my country in teachers/doctors/nurses/health centres ect... telling or teaching our children to have this dont do that,all contrary to what the parents believe in. this is similar to what is happening in the church.

ill tell you of a true story about a young lad,who started a uni course 200 miles away from home.
he was full of life,fit,active,happy go lucky lad.he went to church while at uni.then he got approached by a group of people.mostly women.they over time(about 12 months)brain washed this young lad into fasting till he was at deaths door.took all what he believed and filled it in with their philosophy/spirit.it was only until his father out of the blue visited him that he saved him from death.

the police got involved and they found that a accult groups were preying on people within the church.... i could go into more depth,but i think you get the jist.it was a living nightmare,a living hell.

the lad was my nephew,and his dad was my brother.that is what the pope was saying in my eyes.not those who question.

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Alan
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« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2013, 04:15:06 PM »

@ Daizies

do you think that the pope meant kick people out if they dont like some of the things the church teaches?

i never understood it that way. i understand it to be people like the ones in my country in teachers/doctors/nurses/health centres ect... telling or teaching our children to have this dont do that,all contrary to what the parents believe in. this is similar to what is happening in the church.

ill tell you of a true story about a young lad,who started a uni course 200 miles away from home.
he was full of life,fit,active,happy go lucky lad.he went to church while at uni.then he got approached by a group of people.mostly women.they over time(about 12 months)brain washed this young lad into fasting till he was at deaths door.took all what he believed and filled it in with their philosophy/spirit.it was only until his father out of the blue visited him that he saved him from death.

the police got involved and they found that a accult groups were preying on people within the church.... i could go into more depth,but i think you get the jist.it was a living nightmare,a living hell.

the lad was my nephew,and his dad was my brother.that is what the pope was saying in my eyes.not those who question.


So your concern is not so much sheep who question the status quo, but imposters, insiders or not, who might try to distort Church teachings?

For me I realize that those in the Church who are in charge of keeping things the same over the millenia have a job to do, and frankly that job is not, "how do we get Alan into heaven?"  Their job is that 200 years from now our descendants will still be reading off the same rule book they are now.  If Alan wants to go into heaven, then I must penetrate the shallow practices that are used as what I call the "crunchy outer shell" of the Church, in order to find the rich and chewy gooey center.  (essentially "outer shell" being tradition, "gooey center" being mysticism.  The center is alive under the protection of the shell, and gives the shell reason to exist.  Perhaps most in the shell will never taste of the center, but to me that's a pity.)  That's why I'm turning more and more to Rohr and others who are in the business of helping us through Transforming Union and into Divine Union, rather than just more of the same ol' cheap behavior contests.

So I don't see how they can claim I'm hurting them by believing the wrong things, unless I'm going around proclaiming against Church doctrine, in the name of the Church.  If I have an opinion, then it's nobody's business -- including the Church -- what that opinion is, unless I make it their business. 

Alan
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« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2013, 09:36:24 PM »

I guess its just that my concern is people who try to turn the Church into private members clubs - no undesirables need apply.  Too many times in my life I've been on the outside of that door.  I'm not good enough, I'm not holy enough, I don't do x, y, and z enough.  I've been trapped in a cult, shunned from my church - I could tell stories for days about the things I've been through.  I always thought that when I came to the Catholic Church, I finally found a spiritual home - but more and more I've started to feel unwanted.  (that could be my Borderline PD talking, I'm not really sure).  My biggest fear is that one day I'll be told that I'm no longer good enough to be a Catholic - and then I'll have no hope left at all.
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Alan
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« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2013, 09:44:57 PM »

My biggest fear is that one day I'll be told that I'm no longer good enough to be a Catholic - and then I'll have no hope left at all.

Well, at least here we know they can't do that to you.  They can say what they want, but the Church teaches that once you are Catholic, you are Catholic for life -- even if you are excommunicated or renounce your faith.  Cool  

If they tell you anything to the contrary, they are in error and are themselves going against Catholic teachings.   Angry

Of course they will call you <insert pejorative adjective here> Catholic, but nevertheless Catholic.  Grin

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« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2013, 05:17:04 AM »

Alan...no truer words were spoken...
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OneSheep
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« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2013, 11:49:13 PM »

I guess its just that my concern is people who try to turn the Church into private members clubs - no undesirables need apply.  Too many times in my life I've been on the outside of that door.  I'm not good enough, I'm not holy enough, I don't do x, y, and z enough.  I've been trapped in a cult, shunned from my church - I could tell stories for days about the things I've been through.  I always thought that when I came to the Catholic Church, I finally found a spiritual home - but more and more I've started to feel unwanted.  (that could be my Borderline PD talking, I'm not really sure).  My biggest fear is that one day I'll be told that I'm no longer good enough to be a Catholic - and then I'll have no hope left at all.


I like to go back to that point in church history when, if I remember right, there were two popes, and they excommunicated each other. Grin  Yea, I am sure enough in my own walk that if the ridiculous may occur, that I am excommunicated or something like that, I have it already rehearsed:  "Well, there is room enough for you in my version of the Catholic Church whether you excommunicate me or not."

I am really big on inclusion.  Matter of fact, Carlton Pearson's The Gospel of Inclusion is one of my favorites, even if it is a little repetitive. 

Blasphemers?  Wolves in sheep's clothing?  Well, we need to be aware of those folks, I am really with doormouse on that one.  Some people have some very odd ideas for devotions.  But even those that lead people astray can be forgiven.  Doesn't mean we have to trust those who have led others astray, even though they say they have repented.  There is a time and a place for being wary toward those who have wronged us.

So, Daizies, I guess what I am saying is to stand up and be the Church!  Sure, it is nice to be included in other's idea of Church, but you really don't have much control over what is going to set people off and want to exclude you.  You are included in my Church, whether you think I am arrogant or not! ... please excuse my lecturing... Did you pull my string?....

  It's not about whether others include you, it is about whether you include others.  As they say in the teaching profession "Even your worst day on the job, your are still some child's best hope."  There are a lot of lonely, guilty, and downtrodden people to love in our church, and it may be that all they need is a smile to tell them that they are included.  I hereby knight you, Includer of the Disincluded!  I smile upon you, Daizies; now go out there and smile at someone! Cheesy

Okay, I am calm now.  You all can hold your applause. 

So, Daizies, seriously, are you feeling a bit of anxiety?  Despair?   


   

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Alan
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« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2013, 03:23:23 AM »


  It's not about whether others include you, it is about whether you include others.  As they say in the teaching profession "Even your worst day on the job, your are still some child's best hope."  There are a lot of lonely, guilty, and downtrodden people to love in our church, and it may be that all they need is a smile to tell them that they are included.  I hereby knight you, Includer of the Disincluded!  I smile upon you, Daizies; now go out there and smile at someone! Cheesy

Okay, I am calm now.  You all can hold your applause. 

 Cool
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