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Author Topic: Rom 8:33-39 -- What will separate us from the love of Christ?  (Read 2931 times)
Alan
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piggysiggy
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« on: August 29, 2012, 03:50:09 PM »

Romans 8:33-39, NAB

33  Who will bring a charge against Godís chosen ones? It is God who acquits us.
34  Who will condemn? It is Christ [Jesus] who died, rather, was raised, who also is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us.
35  What will separate us from the love of Christ? Will anguish, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or the sword?
36  As it is written:
ďFor your sake we are being slain all the day;
we are looked upon as sheep to be slaughtered.
37  No, in all these things we conquer overwhelmingly through him who loved us.
38  For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, nor future things, nor powers,
39  nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.


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Lanasshoebox
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« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2012, 05:50:54 PM »

I am not able to articulate a response to this one, as it is informative, but i can not latch onto something to form an opinion or spin off to this. But i adore these Lectico threads. Moving has me distracted...but i will look more clearly another time, and see if it speaks to me then.

Lana
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Alan
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« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2012, 06:10:37 PM »

To me, this tells me that the world can't keep me from the love of God.  It's one of my favorites, in one of my favorite chapters.



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Lanasshoebox
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« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2012, 06:49:25 PM »

Hmmm, maybe i never percieved them as that able...dunno, i still hear this as a tribute type of song, or joy...but not much to comment on. More like i can not articulate the feeling into words, it just is. More factual and collective than anything else i guess. I just do not feel strongly enough about it to grow my god given talent for verbosity!
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« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2012, 10:10:35 AM »

I love the forcefulness of this reading from Ephesians, and I use it every year with my Confirmation class.  What I like the most about it is that it so emphatically contradicts the idea that "we can separate ourselves from God" (by sin, etc.)

To me, we can only PERCEIVE that we are separated from God.  God is always there with us, whether we think so, or not.  Even when we sin.  Nothing separates us, not even sin. 

However, when we sin we are certainly out of harmony with our conscience, and this can certainly seem like a separation.  And we can most certainly say that individual acts that are hurtful are not part of God's will, and it may be helpful to think of a disappointed God or even a shunning God if it helps us to get in control of the sin. 
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Alan
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« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2013, 07:44:14 PM »

I love the forcefulness of this reading from Ephesians, and I use it every year with my Confirmation class.  What I like the most about it is that it so emphatically contradicts the idea that "we can separate ourselves from God" (by sin, etc.)

To me, we can only PERCEIVE that we are separated from God.  God is always there with us, whether we think so, or not.  Even when we sin.  Nothing separates us, not even sin.  

Bam!! You said it.  Not even sin separates us from God.  And yet when I was young, Catholic teachers did their best to instill disabling fear into our hearts that we are going to spend the rest of our lives paranoid that we will somehow mortally sin and die all of a sudden before we can get to confession, and go to hell.  It really just doesn't work that way, in my thoroughly considered opinion.  I mean, even the desire to go to confession technically counts, until you can reasonably get there.

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However, when we sin we are certainly out of harmony with our conscience, and this can certainly seem like a separation.  And we can most certainly say that individual acts that are hurtful are not part of God's will, and it may be helpful to think of a disappointed God or even a shunning God if it helps us to get in control of the sin.  

I agree that sin (as we individually perceive it from our Personal Rule Book, right? -- even if our intent is for our Rule Book to align with someone else's for example the Church's) gives us the feeling of separation.  We feel guilt or shame, or at least somehow defective, because we've Gone Against Our Own Rules.  For this reason, I see that a good understanding of the forgiveness process can give a person hope that they, too, can be forgiven by God.  I mean, once we understand how liberating forgiveness is, we'll know that it is the way the God operates, in mercy all the time.

When I was a little kid, I did something that would have driven psychologists crazy.  I did what I thought my dad wanted me to do, simply out of a desire to hear him and obey.  He didn't have to threaten and punish me or bribe and reward me, to gain my compliance.  That actually caused me a lot of social problem from authority figures who I came into contact with, and didn't understand my desire to comply ... and my desire to tell the unadulterated truth in any given situation under the assumption the authority will act responsibly with the information and not turn it around against me.  So for me, "behavior modification" or "iron fist" methods were not only unnecessary, but could and did backfire.  (It was disturbing for some of my teachers who were not able to figure me out -- they couldn't comprehend how to "just ask me" to do something or to truthfully answer something.)  Because once I'm doing something for the reward or for punishment avoidance rather than the joy of doing what I was asked to do, then my focus shifts from Doing My Best, to What Will Get Me Points.

Alan
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OneSheep
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« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2013, 01:17:12 PM »


Bam!! You said it.  Not even sin separates us from God.  And yet when I was young, Catholic teachers did their best to instill disabling fear into our hearts that we are going to spend the rest of our lives paranoid that we will somehow mortally sin and die all of a sudden before we can get to confession, and go to hell.  It really just doesn't work that way, in my thoroughly considered opinion.  I mean, even the desire to go to confession technically counts, until you can reasonably get there.


As my son said to me the other day, "Dualism causes suffering, but perhaps it is a suffering to avoid a suffering."  This was our agreed position, after much discussion on the topic.  He had just been to a retreat led by a Catholic priest at a Buddhist monastery, in which the central them was finding congruity between the two religions.

Fear of God has its place.  After all, we don't really "know" God's unconditional love until we love unconditionally, so in the mean time fear plays a role in behavior modification, even though the fear is ultimately unfounded. My son is a bit of an idealist, he says that empathy can be appealed to, even in young children.  I think it is more realistic to see that empathy develops with experience; we have to experience a lot of bad stuff before we realize its impact on others.  I would like to think that fear should not be needed to keep behaviors in check, but it seems necessary.  The bottom line here is that people do need to be in control of their behaviors, even if fear is the means.  If we are not in control of our behaviors, we will have great difficulty reconciling with the sources of those behaviors, because lack of control continues to push our own impulse to self-condemn, regardless of the amount of prayer and 
understanding we have of our internal motives.
Quote

I agree that sin (as we individually perceive it from our Personal Rule Book, right? -- even if our intent is for our Rule Book to align with someone else's for example the Church's) gives us the feeling of separation.  We feel guilt or shame, or at least somehow defective, because we've Gone Against Our Own Rules.  For this reason, I see that a good understanding of the forgiveness process can give a person hope that they, too, can be forgiven by God.  I mean, once we understand how liberating forgiveness is, we'll know that it is the way the God operates, in mercy all the time.

When I was a little kid, I did something that would have driven psychologists crazy.  I did what I thought my dad wanted me to do, simply out of a desire to hear him and obey.  He didn't have to threaten and punish me or bribe and reward me, to gain my compliance.  That actually caused me a lot of social problem from authority figures who I came into contact with, and didn't understand my desire to comply ... and my desire to tell the unadulterated truth in any given situation under the assumption the authority will act responsibly with the information and not turn it around against me.  So for me, "behavior modification" or "iron fist" methods were not only unnecessary, but could and did backfire.  (It was disturbing for some of my teachers who were not able to figure me out -- they couldn't comprehend how to "just ask me" to do something or to truthfully answer something.)  Because once I'm doing something for the reward or for punishment avoidance rather than the joy of doing what I was asked to do, then my focus shifts from Doing My Best, to What Will Get Me Points.

Alan

Well, your experience proves that we all have differing responses to "iron fists". 

Why do people sometimes simply desire to hear and obey?   (Fathers or others)
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Alan
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« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2013, 05:55:50 PM »

As my son said to me the other day, "Dualism causes suffering, but perhaps it is a suffering to avoid a suffering."  This was our agreed position, after much discussion on the topic.  He had just been to a retreat led by a Catholic priest at a Buddhist monastery, in which the central them was finding congruity between the two religions.

In my "suffering" on social, financial, mental and emotional situation, taught me what I know.  I've long been very empathetic and used to answer children's crisis hotline as a phone counselor, and that was about 30 years ago.  It was during my Dark Night that I really grew, and those "costs" that I referred to as "suffering" were really just the cost to buy the field where the treasure is buried.  Through His own bizarre way, the Holy Spirit led me through all of it and once I learned how to just be helpless and trust that the Lord will make it all good (Rom 8:28) then the answers started coming to me.  I see now how the things I used to be mad at people for, I now see they were just playing their own roles in the Grand Mystical Body of Christ.  All of that tested my stability systems, until I could re-engineer a software fix in my thinking that would eventually clean out the database.  OK I'm straying... nothing new, right?  Roll Eyes

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I would like to think that fear should not be needed to keep behaviors in check, but it seems necessary.

In a practical sense, this may unfortunately be true.  I used to spank my oldest children but really I would get angry; after the first few this changed.  I hardly spanked the last couple of them, if at all.  Except for one thing.  Sometimes a kid will get his first and possibly only spanking by me, if he runs away intentionally when I call.  So when he starts getting to where he is running around, and knows what it means for me to call him, if I call him and he runs the other way, I catch him and whack!  Automatic, zero warning.  That's because I'm using fear as their first instinct to avoid truly fearful situations like running the other way into the street or around the corner in a grocery or clothing store.  There is one "sin" that must go punished in my book, it is intentional separation of physical distance when they know a reduction in distance is requested.  Usually it doesn't take more than one or two spankings if I do it right.  If I mess it up, wuss out, get upset etc it may take more.

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Well, your experience proves that we all have differing responses to "iron fists".  
Yes.  To me, making me fear you means I'll try not to make you mad, but it may reduce how much benefit I am to you.  I will keep certain things from you, and talk a bit guarded around you.  This is a big problem for me; I can deal with almost anything people want to throw me except anger and treating me as a less than.  Or when they don't trust me -- often they are not honest themselves so they just assume I'm not either.  These are things I can help people with over the long term, but if confronted in a situation, I am very bad at dealing with it.  I usually find a way out or cave in or try to defer the whole matter.  I can't deal with someone whose desire to convey anger and vitriol is stronger than their ability to listen to my responses to what they say.

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Why do people sometimes simply desire to hear and obey?   (Fathers or others)

Wow.  I really have never considered this question.  I've always considered just the opposite.  Why is it that some other kids can just knowingly and brazenly flaunt authority?  When I first did things wrong, I still did them on the sly.  I've never been, and still am not, able to just look a parent or authority figure in the face an defy them.  Even when I know for a fact they are the ones in the wrong.

Personally I think that when we start bribing kids and threatening them with tangible objects -- like things to eat, play with, privileges, it can help with their behavior but I'm not sure it's a Spiritual Correct way to train them.  Public education techniques in the classroom are ruled largely by lawyers and psychologists IMO.  The psychologists consider behavior mod techniques because it works on lab rats.  So we assume kids are like lab rats because they move away from pain and toward pleasure.  That completely takes out the need for, and IMO even the opportunity for, establishing a relationship that is based on more than a mathematical equation what someone does for you minus what they do against you.  How does anybody know if I "love" my father, if they know that if I step even one minute out of line he'll punish me severely?  How do I even know, when my motives to obey are mixed with fear?  I guess that's why we have such a wide range of viewpoints and behaviors.  Take the number of people times the number of situations involved in parent-child relationships, and you will have infinite combinations of how each person is programmed.

And by "how they are programmed" I mean the total result of both nature and nurture.  How does their MOS (Mental Operating System) perform in the context of body and its organs and central nervous systems.  These physical entities constitute the channel through which my MOS interacts with the physical world.  How exactly we are connected gets into philosophical debates about the meaning of the word "I".

Alan
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« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2013, 08:20:41 PM »



When I was a little kid, I did something that would have driven psychologists crazy.  I did what I thought my dad wanted me to do, simply out of a desire to hear him and obey.  

Alan

So, Alan, I think you bring up a very important point here, and here is a door to our shadows.  I am hoping you can take the time to answer this one; I am curious to see if your answer may be similar to my own. 

In my own journey, it has been an eye-opener to not only get to the bottom of all the bad stuff I did, but also the good things I did.  Society looks at your simple desire to hear and obey and says "Oh, what a good boy!".   I mean, maybe a psychologist would think it odd, but such a psychologist would have to be one who finds defiance much more comfortable than compliance. 

So, here is the question:  Why did you desire to hear and obey?  (Why do children and adults have such desires?) 
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« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2013, 11:04:09 PM »

This is a very interesting conversation.  I'm like Alan in that I was always "good", at least at school.  I always wanted the teacher to like me and I never got sent to the principal, ever.  Then, when the character building teacher told us we could ask Jesus into our heart, I wanted to do that (and did).  And when she said we shouldn't say, "Oh God", I remember making a conscious effort not to say that anymore--because I wanted to please God.  I always had this deep down yearning to go to church.  I used to ask my parents to take us to church, and sometimes they would say "no" because my little brother would throw a fit and say he didn't want to go.  Maybe they just didn't want to struggle with him, I don't know.  We were Protestant, so there was no such thing as "mortal sin" or going to Hell because you missed church on Sunday.  Around the time I was 18 or 19, I turned away from God, wanting to do things "my way", but He began to pull me back to Him shortly after that.  Now my worst nightmare is to turn away from God.  My son has been just about the exact opposite--rebellious almost from birth.  He railed against authority even in preschool.  He wants nothing to do with the church or God.  I pray for him everyday.  I'm curious, Alan, why no one could understand why you wanted to be a "pleaser".  If my son had been a "pleaser" I think his teachers would have been very happy.  As it was, I got called or confronted by his teacher almost every day for his poor behavior--at least until high school--then he just kind of did his "own thing" and stayed out of trouble.
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Alan
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« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2013, 06:18:38 AM »

In my own journey, it has been an eye-opener to not only get to the bottom of all the bad stuff I did, but also the good things I did.  Society looks at your simple desire to hear and obey and says "Oh, what a good boy!".   I mean, maybe a psychologist would think it odd, but such a psychologist would have to be one who finds defiance much more comfortable than compliance.  

That is the problem.  They presuppose that kids act according to behavior modification techniques only.  Whatever the behavior issue, we can fix it by instituting the proper reward/punishment system of bribes and threats.  While indeed these techniques work on kids the same way as they work on dogs and rats, humans have much more to offer than that.

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So, here is the question:  Why did you desire to hear and obey?  (Why do children and adults have such desires?)  

When I was young, there was no "why."  I simply heard and obeyed.  To ask why I obeyed is like asking why I went to the bathroom; I was just built/raised that way.  It didn't even occur to me that I was that way, because I knew of no alternative.  My innocence was quickly shattered when I got to school, though.  Any time I did something the teachers didn't understand or didn't like, they read all sorts of nefarious motives into my behavior rather than just asked my why I did it or explained what I did wrong -- and then punished me based on their imagined motives.  Because with my teachers it isn't about developing a cooperative relationship with the students; it's about manipulating the students' triggers according to the prevailing psychological model they have of students.

Today, who knows why I do anything?  Some time back I was trying to reconcile if I had a desire to do something that I'd consider "good" but it was for questionable reasons, how to proceed.  For any given good I might do there may be dozens of motives that all factor in at some level of consciousness, that somehow combine to get me off my resting position and do something.  Some will be "selfless" and others "selfish."  I've determined that a) I cannot reliably divide motives into those to categories (selfless v selfish), b) I have no way of observing myself as to which factors I weighed more heavily, or if the decision was made by some totally other force, and c) I don't consider motives bad just because they are selfish -- in part because even selfish motives to do good can lead to good results for others.  What I decided is that if I want to do something that I think is good, do it anyway regardless of the motive.

Short answer:  When I was young, there was no "why."  So I could not have even pondered the question.  Now that I'm this age, there are so many competing "why's" for anything I do that I can't answer because everything I do can be analyzed from mixed motives and it's too complicated for me to put it on a single scale of measurement.

Especially when it comes to socially significant behavior that effects other people, I can wrestle with various parameters and points of view that if I were more of a biased person than I am (and I often wish I were) that for quite a few decisions I make, I cannot honestly say that one choice is "better" than another.  I can see it's better because of this and worse because of that <to make a particular decision> but in the end the answer is subjective, and to the observer without precisely my way of looking at things, it can seem arbitrary.

Alan
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Alan
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« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2013, 01:00:00 PM »

I always wanted the teacher to like me and I never got sent to the principal, ever.

I'd say I didn't even consider the idea of teachers not liking me until some started showing hostile behavior.  At that point I began to care whether they liked me.  The trouble was, I didn't know what sort of "key words" would trigger them off because I didn't know any social skills.  So there were times I was in trouble -- usually not principle's office but a couple times yes -- and literally didn't know what I had said that was wrong, or why it was wrong.  They seemed to insist on the worst way to interpret anything I said as an honest, unprotected answer to a question, and assumed I was doing it on purpose.  They thought I was a smug little smartass just because I knew math better than they did.  (I didn't know that until years later btw)  Truth was, I would never say anything to get myself into trouble, but they made it a mystery to me.  So I feared it as an arbitrary force, one that would persist despite my best efforts to figure out what to do and not to do, to make them mad.

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We were Protestant, so there was no such thing as "mortal sin" or going to Hell because you missed church on Sunday.

Honestly, I am not so sure our way is better.  When one is coerced by eternal punishment to show up for Mass, then really why is it so joyous that we even show up?  Are we not just cattle being prodded along?  I guess it's good for the Church, but is it good for the soul?  How do I know if I love God enough to go to church, if I am threatened for missing it?  Oh well chalk that up as a strategy issue I surrender to the Church.

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I'm curious, Alan, why no one could understand why you wanted to be a "pleaser".  If my son had been a "pleaser" I think his teachers would have been very happy.  As it was, I got called or confronted by his teacher almost every day for his poor behavior--at least until high school--then he just kind of did his "own thing" and stayed out of trouble.

More than "why," they didn't even understand THAT I was a pleaser.  For example, if I offered to explain something to the teacher when she couldn't agree with something I knew was right, it was a offer to her.  I said I'd be happy to stay after school and discuss it.  But she didn't take that as helpful offer, she took it as undermining her authority and making her look bad.  So I got into trouble for it.  What she didn't know was that I was tutoring several others in the class who bombed a test because they had listened to her.  The other kids knew that if it was a math problem and it was the teacher against me, I would be right.  So really I was pretty bad for their fragile but sometimes violent egos.  I'll never know what I even said the time Sister John Aloysius (or maybe Sr. Charlene?) grabbed my ear and pulled it, with me trying to follow without tripping, out of the classroom and into the next one.  I was in room 106 and she opened the door to room 108, interrupting their class, and "tossed" me into the front of 108 in front of the whole class of third graders (I was in second grade), saying, "I don't want THIS in my room."  So then I had to sit in the little reading chairs in the front of the room of third graders while they conducted class.  None of this helped my behavior because I still have no idea what the hell I had even done wrong.

Alan
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« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2013, 11:14:07 PM »

Honestly, I am not so sure our way is better.  When one is coerced by eternal punishment to show up for Mass, then really why is it so joyous that we even show up?  Are we not just cattle being prodded along?  I guess it's good for the Church, but is it good for the soul?  How do I know if I love God enough to go to church, if I am threatened for missing it?  Oh well chalk that up as a strategy issue I surrender to the Church.
I see this going both ways.  For some (like me), fear of Hell is a starting point...a reason to get back on track.  The love begins to develop after you begin to take following Christ seriously.  For me, without fear of Hell, I don't know if I ever would have straightened up.  But that's what worked for ME.  For others, it's the LOVE of Christ that speaks to their hearts and brings them to repentance.  Some people are so turned off by the idea of a God that "throws them into Hell" for missing one Mass, they can't bring themselves to love a God like that.  They aren't at a point in their faith where they realize that it boils down to something else being more important (sleeping in, playing golf, watching a game, whatever) than honoring the third commandment of God by spending one hour a week in worship.  Only when they understand that, can they see how missing church "disses" the God Who made us and sent His only Son to die for our sins.  I honestly don't know what the answer is, as far as bringing others to Christ and/or to the Catholic Faith.  For some, fear of Hell is the only way they're going to straighten up, while for others hearing preaching about Hell only serves to turn them further away.



More than "why," they didn't even understand THAT I was a pleaser.  For example, if I offered to explain something to the teacher when she couldn't agree with something I knew was right, it was a offer to her.  I said I'd be happy to stay after school and discuss it.  But she didn't take that as helpful offer, she took it as undermining her authority and making her look bad.  So I got into trouble for it.  What she didn't know was that I was tutoring several others in the class who bombed a test because they had listened to her.  The other kids knew that if it was a math problem and it was the teacher against me, I would be right.  So really I was pretty bad for their fragile but sometimes violent egos.  I'll never know what I even said the time Sister John Aloysius (or maybe Sr. Charlene?) grabbed my ear and pulled it, with me trying to follow without tripping, out of the classroom and into the next one.  I was in room 106 and she opened the door to room 108, interrupting their class, and "tossed" me into the front of 108 in front of the whole class of third graders (I was in second grade), saying, "I don't want THIS in my room."  So then I had to sit in the little reading chairs in the front of the room of third graders while they conducted class.  None of this helped my behavior because I still have no idea what the hell I had even done wrong.

How sad that you were so misunderstood, Alan.  I suppose it would be embarrassing to realize that a kid knows more about math than you do as a teacher/nun.  I guess they saw it as being disrespectful, but reading your post it seems to me it could have been an opportunity for humility--a chance to show that each of us has his/her own God-given talents that should be shared for the good of others and that none of us knows everything--only God knows EVERYTHING. We ended up pulling our son from Catholic grade school before he was thrown out for bad behavior.  I'm not sure what to think about it.  I've forgiven everyone involved and I've let it go, but I've often wondered if Jesus would throw a first-grader out of a school or if He might have tried to reach Him somehow?  My kid didn't fit the obedient, fall-in-line model I guess.
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